Maddening Reception Issues - Stansbury Park

[bonnevillemariner]

I'll admit it- I haven't even tried to watch over-the-air TV for years, since way before the switch to digital. We had satellite for a few years but cut the cord in 2011. I only ever miss TV during live sport events like the Super Bowl and Olympics. So the Missus and I decied to buy an antenna to catch some Olympic coverage. We live in Stansbury Park with a completely unobstructed line of sight to Farnsworth Peak. Bought a simple $10 RCA antenna, did an autoprogram (why, by the way?) and got 2 channels, both Spanish. No KSL.

Bought a $15 antenna. This one had a graphic spectrum on the box saying it was "better." I got UEN, a few channels without picture, and both Spanish channels.

Bought a $30 antenna, this one with a powered amplifier. This box said "best." I got 8 channels total: 4.1,2,3 and a few others without picture. Plus the two Spanish channels. NO KSL.

This might not be so maddening had we not picked up all the main channels perfectly on the analog system before the switch. We don't live in a metal box, and I've been positioning these antennas less than 4 feet from a window (thru which I can see Farnsworth Peak)

Questions:

1. Why wouldn't even the simplest antenna not pick up at least KSL?
2. Am I to assume the two Spanish stations I get are the most powerful in the state? Why can I ALWAYS pick them up?
3. I know this dates me, but what exactly is auto program and why do I need to do it? How is digital TV any better than analog?

2014 and I can't pick up KSL on a TV!

No wonder I cut the cord.

[Terry]

I also had major issues receiving DTV. One important thing that I learned is that the position of the antenna is very important. Moving your antenna horizontally or vertically even a few inches can sometimes change which channels you will receive. Through much experimentation I also learned that an antenna on the roof was a necessity for me. I also learned that an amplified antenna does more harm than good to your reception in the Salt Lake area.

I bought the biggest UHF antenna made and mounted it above my chimney. I still could not get all of the channels. I moved the antenna to the other end of the house, as an experiment, and now I get all of the channels perfectly. It shouldn't be this hard. No wonder so many people subscribe to cable/satellite just to get local channels.

I watch more hours of TV via the internet now than over-the-air or cable. I suspect that is the future of TV.

[bonnevillemariner]

Thanks, Terry. I find it so ironic that decades of advancements in AV tech have only made it tougher for me to watch over-the-air TV (unless you speak Spanish). Can you imagine if radio was this tough to receive?

[CAwasinNJ]

First question: why is there an autoprogram? To be fair, most TV's from the last few decades have an autoprogram to find the channels for you. It's just easier. But with digital TV it's more important. Remember that most frequencies changed with the move to digital. KSL may still call itself channel 5, but it's really channel 38. The box can't tell you it's supposed to call channel 38 channel 5 until it sees it.

Now to your antenna problem. With a simple unamplified bow-tie antenna I could pick up all the major channels from Ogden, and with other indoor antenna I've gotten all the channels from multiple locations in Davis County. There are a few possibilities. One that you might now have thought of is that the digital tuner might be going bad. You wouldn't think so, but I've had two die on my in the last few years. They just go deaf for some reason and can't pick up the signals. Replacing the tuner with a new box shows everything on the transmission side is fine. The boxes just broke. (Two different manufacturers by the way.) Depending on how old your TV/tuner is, that could very well be your issue. Rather than keeping on buying new antenna, you might look at buying a digital converter box and running that to your TV. They run in the neighborhood of $50. It won't be the greatest picture since it's downconverted, but if you don't watch OTA TV much it's probably not a huge deal. Something to consider.

The antenna position near a window is irrelevant. Signals don't care whether they're going through glass or a wall. It's the same thing. Height is much more important. The rules is, get it up as high as possible. Since you say you can see Farnsworth through the window, height probably isn't a big factor for you, but it couldn't hurt to check.

This is where it gets interesting. There's only 1 full power Spanish station on Farnsworth (KPNZ 24), unless KUTH moved already. The technical specs for all of the stations on Farnsworth are effectively the same. If you get one, you should get all of them. It would be helpful if you could say what Spanish stations are consistently coming in well. That will give me a clearer idea of what's going on. One thing you definitely want to do is make sure you Read The Fine Manual on the antenna. The newer models are very picky about how they're looking for a signal. With the flat panel antenna I have (also an RCA), it's designed to be set up parallel to the ground. You wouldn't think so, but it is. It you set it up vertically, it sees almost nothing. Set up correctly, I get 46 channels consistently. Yes, this is opposite from how old style bow-tie or round antennas work. Also, make sure that the antennas you're using are designed for UHF. There are no VHF stations on the air anywhere in the valley, so the pull out rabbit ears are next to useless. It's possible the antenna is directional, so you'll want to check on that as well though I've never heard of a directional indoor antenna myself.

Digital TV is a definite improvement over analog in a few ways. For one, the picture is night and day better than standard def. Two, you can have many more channels on the same frequency than you can with analog. Three, if you can get a signal you don't have to worry about snow or fade. If you get it, you get it cleanly. Obviously it isn't perfect. In the old days you could watch a snowy picture and at least know what was happening. That won't happen with digital. You either get a perfect picture or nothing. Overall it's a definite win, but there are challenges.

Give us a status update and I'll try to help more if I can.

P.S. IBUZ radio actually *is* that hard as well.

[kenglish]

What channels do you get Spanish programming on?
There are three analog stations remaining in the Salt Lake area....Channel 23 (MudoFOX), Channel 50 (Telemundo simulcast) and Channel 43 (3ABN analog from Lake Mountain, west of Provo). If that was all you were getting, it sounds like you didn't get a good scan of the Digital channels....some sets require you to scan once for analog, and again for Digital. You also need to have a good signal before the scan will work.

The reason you have to scan for Digital channels is a bit different from analog. When you used to scan a new TV set for analog channels, it simply remembered what channels had actual video (in the clear) signals, and logged them in to it's memory.
In the Digital world, the TV has to look at each RF channel, and find PSIP (Program and System Information Protocol) data. That's a sort of "electronic table-of-contents", and...just like in a book...it's the first thing that the receiver sees. The PSIP contains a series of data tables, which give all of the "system" information, as well as information about the different "program" streams.

One of the first things the set has to do is find the "Virtual Channel Table", which links the Virtual Channel (in KSL's case, it's called "Channel 5") with the actual radio-frequency channel (KSL broadcasts on UHF channel 38 at Farnsworth). That way, the set will remember where to look for KSL...."5 is on 38". The VCT will be different in different translator areas, since KSL might be on some other channel than 38.

Once the set receives the PSIP data, it gets a whole slew of other data. Part of it is the PAT (Program Association Table), which tells the set how many different program streams are in the channel (KSL-HD, COZI-TV and KSL Weather), and where to get the proper information to decode the stream. Once you tune to a particular stream (as defined in the PAT), the PMT (Program Map Table) tells the set where to get the video, the audio (or, audios), etc for the channel, as well as the current EPG (Electronic Program Guide) information.

There are also a bunch of other tables that give the time (it's a GPS-based time, and you have to tell your set where you are located, so it can calculate the actual clock time), ratings, etc.

Once the set has found these tables, most will remember the "index" portions, and know how to find the programming streams. Many sets will also automatically update the memorized table information as it finds changes, so you don't have to rescan to get the names and information for a new sub-channel.
Unfortunately, you DO have to re-scan occasionally, in order to find the basic tables for a new STATION. That's why I recommend a re-scan every few months...just to discover a new station. If the TV set looses the VCT, such as what happened with KSL data a couple of weeks ago, you will have to rescan, or at least manually tune to the RF channel and let the PSIP data update.

Being so close to Farnsworth, you are likely getting too much signal....also, multi-path is probably an issue. I usually recommend a good VHF plus UHF combo antenna, since it can receive all the possible channels, including FM radio (just above VHF channel 6). Being so close, though, you'd need an FM Trap (one that lowers the FM band signals by about 20 dB). You'll need the kind that attenuates from 88 to 108 MHz (some are designed to only start at about 92 MHz, and are usually used where you "just have to get" channel 6, right below the FM band. Unfortunately, they are also a hold-over from the old analog days, back when only low-powered "Educational" stations were at the bottom end of the FM band. A full band FM Trap will cut off part of the channel 6 signal bandwidth. FM signals are usually the densest signals in a given market, and can easily overload the front-end amplifier of the TV set or a preamp, so you want to lower their levels a bit. The VHF part of the antenna, though, will be directional enough to cut down on multi-path distortion of the FM signals, and the FM's will be plenty strong enough to give you a good, full-quieting signal on the radio.

Radio Shack sells the filters for around five bucks.

Along the same lines...."overload", I mean....the signals are very strong at your location. In theory, every signal will mix with every nearby signal, any place it can. That's just basic physics. The trick is to keep from hitting the amplifier too hard, especially in a strong-signal area. You might have some luck with adding some attenuation before the TV or any amplifier. I don't think Radio Shack carries 75-ohm attenuators right now, but they are available at electronics stores like Ballard Supply or Standard. I think I've seen some at places like Lowe's or Home Depot, and they are available on-line at places like Solid Signal.

As far as multi-path...the majority of the signal is probably shooting over your head, and bouncing back toward you. Getting a really directional antenna up on the roof is the best thing to do, but you might have some luck with the indoor antenna looking out toward the western mountains, or toward anything else that might capture the higher-altitude signal and focus it back toward you. You'd probably need something to block the direct signal from Farnsworth....walls, a more directional antenna, or even some aluminum foil several inches behind any bi-directional antenna (which is what the flat "Leaf" antennas really are). They pick up in a "Figure-8" pattern, and can be finicky if you have interfering signals coming from the opposite direction.

Remember...the two enemies of Digital are severe, or rapidly changing, multi-path, and Noise or distortion. The ATSC receivers can lock to very weak signals, if they are pure. The receiver can compensate for some pretty bad multi-path (with it's built-in equalizer), but noise and distortion can mask the weaker bits within the signals.
The "Signal meter" on most sets is really a "Q", or "Quality" meter, showing the inverse of how hard to equalizer and correction circuits are working. A non-distorted, but extremely weak signal can show a "high" reading. A very strong, but distorted, signal may show very low readings, because the set is working beyond its ability to sort out the data. It's usually NOT a "Signal Strength" meter at all, and some sets actually have two meters, so one will show the AGC value of the tuner.

[CAwasinNJ]

Great posting Ken. I'm going to keep that for reference. Thank you.

[bonnevillemariner]

Yes, very good info! I'm still digesting a lot of it, but really I appreciate you taking the time to explain these concepts.

I think the reason I'm so frustrated by this issue is that this is my first time ever trying to pick up digital TV. I own a couple TVs, but those were made well before the switch to digital. Back when I did watch over-the-air broadcasts on them, getting a decent signal was as simple as adjusting the rabbit ears. No powered amplifiers, no PSIP tables, no FM Trap, no autoprogram. Just turn on the TV, adjust the (built-in) antenna and I was golden.

(I know this makes me sound really old school, and yes, I realize how much more I can see, supposedly, on digital than I could on analog.)

The TV I'm using is a brand new flat screen, which reduces the probability that my reception problems are a matter of some component going bad. Ken, I'll have to set my latest antenna back up to see exactly which Spanish stations I get, but if I recall correctly there were two-- one analog and the other digital. I got those no matter which antenna I tried. I just can't get over the fact that what used to be so simple has become so ridiculously complex. I'll try some of the things you both have suggested and report back. Thanks again.

[kenglish]

I just read the latest issue of "TV Technology" magazine, which isn't on-line yet.
Charlie Rhodes, who was Chief Scientist of the ATSC Test Labs, wrote about how a "loose connection" on an f-connector can cause second harmonics of strong FM radio signal. I suspect it's also possible for the same thing to happen to strong UHF signals, too.
I know that the Cable TV industry has found that the center wire in an F-connector should be cut flat, without any burr, or it will scratch the inside of the female connector, and can then cause intermodulation, due to the "diode effect" of the oxidation on the two different metals.